Women shined particularly bright at Music's Biggest Night this year. As Trevor Noah put it in his monologue: "There’s a band that has already won today called boygenius, it’s three women. That’s how good a year it is for women."

Beyond boygenius' first GRAMMY wins, the conversation about female artists' legacy at the 2024 GRAMMYs had been building since the nominations were announced, when it was revealed that seven of the eight nominees for Album Of The Year were women. The majority of the performers for the 66th GRAMMY Awards were also women, including the legendary Joni Mitchell, Billie Eilish, SZA, and Dua Lipa. And several female artists were on the precipice of making history (chief among them, Taylor Swift, who later became the first ever four-time winner of Album Of The Year.

The results of the ceremony were no less centered on the ladies. At the Premiere Ceremony, Julien Baker, Phoebe Bridgers, and Lucy Dacus won three of the six Rock Categories for their work as boygenius. Lainey Wilson nabbed Best Country Album, Joni Mitchell won Best Folk Album, and Victoria Monét won Best R&B Album and Best New Artist. Gaby Moreno, Karol G and Tyla nabbed trophies as well.

As the night went on, that tally continued. In fact, other than Producer Of The Year and Songwriter Of Year, a woman won every category in the General Field, including Billie Eilish's "What Was I Made For?" winning Song of the Year and Taylor Swift's Midnights pulling off the big fourth Album Of The Year win.

From every corner of the room, Music’s Biggest Night was filled with powerful women taking the spotlight. Here are eight moments where women ruled the 2024 GRAMMYs — with no sign of this reign ending.

Taylor Swift Hits Lucky Number 13 (And 14, Too)

While it’s true that Taylor Swift’s name has been at the center of what feels like 98 percent of music in the past year, and that continued at the 2024 GRAMMYs. Much speculation ahead of the 66th GRAMMY Awards came down to whether she would make history by winning her fourth Album Of The Year award.

Adding to the excitement, the iconic Celine Dion surprised the world and took the stage to announce the winner for the night’s final award, and it happened: "Taylor Swift."

Rather than bask in her own glory, Swift seemed shocked, fumbling to get a high-five and hug connected with close friend and uber-producer Jack Antonoff. And her acceptance speech made it clear that while she appreciated and was honored by the award, she wasn’t about to rest on any laurels, no matter how massive they may be.

"I would love to tell you that this is the best moment of my life, but I feel this happy when I finish a song, or when I crack the code to a bridge I love, or when I'm shot-listing a music video, or when I'm rehearsing with my dancers or my band, or getting ready to go to Tokyo to play a show," she said. "For me the award is the work. All I wanna do is keep being able to do this. I love it so much, it makes me so happy."

True to that word, the evening also featured Swift announcing a new album — after Midnights won Best Pop Vocal Album (her lucky number 13th GRAMMY) earlier in the night, Swift made the surprise announcement that she’d be releasing her 11th studio album, The Tortured Poets Department, on April 19.

There was something inspiring, too, about the way Swift got to the stage — practically yanking Lana Del Rey from her seat at the same table, demanding she join her onstage. "I think so many female artists would not be where they are and would not have the inspiration they have if it weren’t for the work that she’s done," Swift told the assembly. "She’s a legacy artist, a legend in her prime right now."

Always a booster of other women in the industry, of course she had to share the spotlight even with her history-making fourth Album Of The Year award in hand.

Tracy Chapman Returns To The GRAMMY Stage

Sure, it was Luke Combs nominated for Best Country Solo Performance, but he made it crystal clear that he was there because of Tracy Chapman.

"That was my favorite song before I even knew what a favorite song was," he said in a video package prior to his performance, evocatively describing trips in his dad’s pickup truck, Chapman’s self-titled debut on the cassette player. Combs loved the song so much, he explained, that he wanted to put a cover of it on his 2023 album, Gettin' Old.

He went on to laud its universal appeal, the way Chapman’s chorus gets full-throated sing-alongs no matter the listener’s background — a powerful message, considering that Combs’ recording winning the Country Music Awards' Song Of The Year award made Chapman the first Black woman to receive that honor. "To be associated with her in any way is super humbling for me," Combs said.

The show transitioned from that heartfelt praise directly to Chapman’s hand on her guitar neck, picking out that iconic acoustic riff. Thirty-five years after its initial release, there was Chapman again on the GRAMMYs stage, this time dueting with a country star clearly in awe of sharing her space, mouthing along with the lines he wasn’t singing. It was an unforgettable performance, astonishing in its ability to pull us all out of our bodies and into the spirit of music.

The Endless Allure Of SZA

"Nobody got more nominations this year than SZA," Trevor Noah announced during his opening monologue — and that was after the experimental R&B artist born Solana Rowe had already won two GRAMMYs at the Premiere Ceremony earlier in the evening.

SZA had many more special moments left in the night. She performed a section of the GRAMMY-nominated "Snooze" in a black trenchcoat and hat, and the blade-wielding rebuke triggered the transition to another smash hit from 2022’s SOS: "Kill Bill". The cinematic performance featured a squad of leather-clad woman assassins slicing and dicing a series of men in suits, as SZA effortlessly walked the stage to deliver the world’s sweetest anthem centered on homicide. (For the record, the sight of Phoebe Bridgers’ outright glee at the sight of a sword-wielding dancer standing on her table at the song’s outset has to go down as one of the night’s best moments.)

Later, she would take home the GRAMMY for Best R&B Song for "Snooze" — her tally of three awards tying for the second largest of any artist at the 66th GRAMMY Awards. SZA was handed the golden gramophone by Lizzo, the two women clearly sharing a special moment.

"Lizzo and I have been friends since 2013 when we were both on a tiny Red Bull tour, opening up in small rooms for like 100 people. And to be on the stage with her is so amazing, I’m so grateful," SZA said after sprinting onstage, having just changed out of her performance attire. The tearful, brief acceptance speech that followed showed the incredibly honest and passionate person — and performer — that she is.

Boygenius Win Their First GRAMMY Awards

For a trio of badasses like boygenius, one or two GRAMMYs just wouldn’t do. They needed an award apiece: Best Rock Performance, Best Alternative Music Album, and Best Rock Song (all handed to them by queer icon Rufus Wainwright, no less). Julien Baker, Phoebe Bridgers, and Lucy Dacus sprinted down the aisle in their matching white suits at the Premiere Ceremony, giddy, shocked, together.

Befitting the trio’s history — both together and separately — as brilliant writers and lyricists, each had their own memorable line. 

"Music saved my life. Everyone can be in a band, this band is my family," Baker said, beaming after they won the Best Rock Performance award. "We were all delusional enough as kids to think that this might happen to us one day," Dacus said with a laugh. But just two days after the public announcement that the band was going on hiatus to focus on their own solo projects, it was this quick aside from Bridgers during their acceptance for Best Rock Song that brought the warmth: "I owe these boys everything. I love you guys so much." 

Tyla Makes Africa Proud

Trevor Noah may have been the host, but he wasn't the only one bringing South African flavor to the 2024 GRAMMYs.

"What the heck!?" Tyla said earlier in the evening at the Premiere Ceremony, grinning as her Johannesburg accent dripping with gleeful shock. At just 22 years old and a month out from even releasing her debut studio album, the viral pop star was nominated in the stacked inaugural Category of Best African Music Performance, including Asake & Olamide, Burna Boy, Davido and Musa Keys, and Ayra Starr. But it was Tyla’s "Water" — an amapiano-driven pop instant classic — that took home the award.

The song had already made history, as the first South African single to reach the Billboard Hot 100 since jazz legend Hugh Masekela achieved that feat in 1968, not to mention that the song reaching number seven made Tyla the highest-charting African female solo musician in Billboard history. 

"If you don’t know me, my name is Tyla, I’m from South Africa, and last year God decided to change my whole life," she said, the glow of the GRAMMY gold radiating on her face.

Annie Lennox Knows We Are Never Forgotten

The In Memoriam segment inevitably provides some of the most touching moments of any GRAMMY Awards. But every once in a while, a truly special performance will stand out amidst the heartache. Such was the case with Annie Lenox’s tear-stained performance of "Nothing Compares 2 U" from the late Sinéad O’Connor. The Eurythmics vocalist sat piano-side, a tear-like streak of glitter applied below her left eye, delivering the Irish legend’s best-loved song with every ounce of gravitas the moment demanded — and then some.

"Nothing compares/ Nothing compares to you," she sang with her eyes gazing skyward, before clenching them tight, her lips quivering. And as the song rounded to a finish, Lenox raised a fist, and spoke a simple, direct sentence that the outspoken activist O'Connor surely would have appreciated: "Artists for ceasefire, peace in the world."

Joni Mitchell Proves It's Never Too Late For Firsts

When word got out that Joni Mitchell would be making her first performance at the GRAMMYs, the global anticipation for the ceremony seemed to hit a boiling point. Since recovering from a brain aneurysm in 2015, Mitchell has been stepping into the spotlight more in recent years, but the thought of her onstage at the 66th GRAMMY Awards still felt miraculous.

But then there was Brandi Carlile, extolling Mitchell’s many virtues before introducing one of the greatest singer-songwriters of all time. "Joni just turned 80 my friends, but we all know she’s timeless," Carlile smiled, noting as well that "the matriarch of imagination" had already won a GRAMMY that same evening for Best Folk Album. 

And then the lights came up on Joni, seated in a gold-framed armchair, clutching a cane with a silver cat’s head on its hilt, singing the first lines of the all-time classic "Both Sides Now." Backed by a band of GRAMMY-winning heroes in their own right (Carlile, along with SistaStrings, Blake Mills, Lucius, Allison Russell, and Jacob Collier), it seems impossible that any eye in the room could have remained dry, let alone focused anywhere except right on Mitchell, with her beating heart and sky-scraping lyricism. Even Carlile, seated at her left, couldn’t stop looking up from her guitar to smile in awe.

"Well something's lost, but something's gained/ In living every day," she sang with a soft hint of a smile, before the well of strings, clarinet, guitars, and piano brought the final chorus in. 

Miley Finally Gets Her Flowers 

With what appeared to be four outfit changes between the red carpet and the stage and a sky-high, Dolly Parton-inspired brown bouffant, pop superstar Miley Cyrus delivered her fair share of memorable moments throughout the evening. Cyrus arrived at the 66th GRAMMY Awards without any GRAMMYs to her name, despite two previous nominations, a slew of hit albums, and 11 Top 10 singles dating back 17 years — which made her two wins even more noteworthy.

The GRAMMY drought ended thanks to smash single “Flowers,"which won Best Pop Solo Performance and Record Of The Year, solidifying Cyrus’ place both in GRAMMY history and as one of the year’s most celebrated pop stars. 

The former teen star took the stage at the 66th GRAMMY Awards as well, delivering “Flowers” to a star-studded — a daunting task for anyone, even a seasoned star. But it should have come as no surprise that Cyrus would be comfortable in that spotlight, as evidenced by her joking question for the entire room (and, it seemed, viewers at home, too): "Why are you acting like you don't know this song?" 

Despite her glowing near-speechlessness at finally earning a GRAMMY, the comfortable quips didn’t stop there. "I don't think I forgot anyone, but I might've forgotten underwear... bye!" she exclaimed before zipping offstage with her brand new GRAMMY hardware.

Celine & Mariah: Presenters Make History, Too

Even when just presenting awards, powerful women were at the forefront at the 66th GRAMMY Awards. The evening’s first presenter was Mariah Carey, onstage just three days after receiving the Impact Award from the Recording Academy’s Black Music Collective. The five-time GRAMMY-winner received the honor for her art’s influence and her inspirational legacy of service — and considering the ovation in the room, that impact was felt by her peers as well as the fans watching along at home.

Carey was presenting for Best Pop Solo Performance, and used her inimitable falsetto to deliver the ecstatic announcement: "And yes, this year all five nominees are women!" The sight of Carey handing Miley Cyrus her first GRAMMY (in honor of disco-tinged bop "Flowers") was, as Miley aptly put it, "too iconic."

While that opening set the stage for women dominating the show, the other bookend to the evening’s awards proved perhaps even more tear-jerking. At the end of 2023, the update came that Celine Dion’s battle with the rare neurological disorder "stiff person syndrome" had left the legendary vocalist without full control of her muscles, sometimes causing trouble walking or even using her vocal cords. As such, the sight of her walking down the golden tunnel and up to the microphone to announce the nominees for Album Of The Year felt like a special honor in and of itself.

"When I say that I’m happy to be here, I really mean it from my heart," she said. "Those who have been blessed enough to be here at the GRAMMY Awards must never take for granted the tremendous love and joy that music brings to our lives and to people all around the world."

Dion offering those lines — that positivity and beauty in the face of unprecedented difficulty — before presenting the award that would make history for Taylor Swift felt so fitting, emblematic of the powerful women who made the evening what it was.

Check Out The Full Winners & Nominees List For The 2024 GRAMMYs

Leon Thomas III has had a big year. Following a Best R&B Song win at the 2024 GRAMMYs for "Snooze" and a three-month stint in Florence, Italy to produce Ye and Ty Dolla $ign’s Vultures series, the R&B singer and songwriter is ready to see his own name atop the marquee. 

When he’s not penning chart-topping songs or producing for the likes of Ariana Grande, Post Malone, Drake or Chris Brown, the former child actor is adding notches to his own musical utility belt. Since joining Ty Dolla $ign’s EZMNY Records as the imprint’s first artist in 2022, Thomas has evolved into a R&B fixture. His debut album, 2023's Electric Dusk, showcased his slick lyrics, free-flowing melodies, and anthem-made ballets in full form.

Now, the Brooklyn-born artist is set to build on his newfound momentum with his sophomore release, Mutt. While the project may seem carefully curated, Thomas says the album and his artistic journey is loosely-tailored by design. 

"There are parts of this that people may think are calculated, but I’m just flowing," he tells GRAMMY.com. "I’m just glad people are resonating with everything I’m doing naturally. It’s a journey."  

Mutt unites Thomas' love of jazz icons like Art Blakey and Miles Davis with neo-soul and rock acts like Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin to forge sleek jams with a contemporary edge. Album cuts "Vibes Don’t Lie" and "Yes It Is" are a baptism in neo-soul vocals, evoking  innovators such as D’Angelo, Musiq Soulchild, and Maxwell. 

The album is as lyrically rich as it is sonically expansive. On the sultry "I Use To," Thomas recounts the sorrow of a lost love that once enriched his soul; "I Do" is a piano-laden tale of the hard-fought lessons that ushered in a new romantic endeavor. Throughout, the singer/songwriter is intensely vulnerable. "God and losing you is the only two things I fear," Thomas sings. 

The rock-inspired "Dancing With Demons" is a foot inside the deep end of fame while "How Fast" offers a flash of braggadocio. "Hold on, I’m a visionary. This s– getting kind of scary/ So addicted to the top, it’s always missionary." And "Answer Your Phone" is a crowd-swaying tune set to enliven fans on Thomas’s first solo tour.

Like Thomas’ life, the album shows the "Socialite" artist embark on a one-way ticket to the top of the musical landscape. He’s no longer satisfied with playing the background. Thomas has embraced the weight of being a headlining act on Mutt, and he’s prepared to weather the uncertain storms and visible weeds he’s set to experience on his broader musical pursuits. 

Thomas spoke with GRAMMY.com about his studio sessions with Ty Dolla $ign and Ye, the new generation of R&B crooners pushing the genre forward, and how his dog Terry inspired the album title. 

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity. 

How does it feel to release your second album?

It feels special, but I was super nervous. Dropping music in 2024 is an interesting process because you’re fighting the waves of so many social media moments and distractions. But it’s great to see my music cut through and for people to hear me. It feels like some of my best work, and I’m just excited for people to see all of the different ways I’m putting music together. This is going to be a journey. 

What inspired the album title?

I got a dog three years ago. His name is Terry and he’s a German Shepherd and Husky mix. He’s such a sweetheart, but he’s always getting into stuff. I recognize the face he makes when he’s in trouble. I make the same face when I’m about to go through a breakup or something. 

I felt like that correlation was an interesting process. I wanted to talk about the element of control between men and women when you’re trying to get your partner to act right. It seems to be a common theme in this generation, so I wanted to talk about it. 

What sound were you trying to capture on Mutt?

For me, jazz is the root of who I am. My grandfather was really cool with Art Blakey back in the day, and he always played Miles Davis and John Coltrane. I try to find ways to implement some of the chord progressions that I hear in my head into my music. That will always be adjacent to neo soul, but I don’t necessarily want to do a whole live jazz album as a 30-year-old right now. 

A lot of decisions that I made are also rock influenced as well. I was listening to a lot of Black Sabbath, the Rolling Stones, and Led Zeppelin during the making of the album. I’m finding ways to sneak in my influences, even though I know I’ll lock in on these R&B charts. 

How did the production come together? Did you handle most of it?

I outsourced. There were a bunch of different guys that worked on the production. I think being around Ye and Ty Dolla $ign for the Vultures I album helped. I spent three months in Florence, Italy before I finished [Mutt]. I came back with a different taste level for how an album can play from top to bottom and how tricky we can get with the production. I started adding little pieces here and there to really elevate the sound of it. It’s definitely my symphony, and I’m trying to put it all together.  

How is it working with artists like Ty Dolla $ign, Ye, Chris Brown, and SZA? Are you inspired by their work or studio sessions?

I think I’m inspired by osmosis. I don’t feel like there’s any specific style that I’m using that’s theirs. I’m just putting my neck out there and daring to be different. I’m not doing basic concepts or attacking basic instrumentals. I feel like I’m doing my best to push the genre by taking chances and experimenting. I’m just hoping that it’s received because I genuinely love the R&B genre. I want to see it grow and evolve, and I want to be a part of that process. 

Read more: How 'SOS' Transformed SZA Into A Superstar & Solidified Her As The Vulnerability Queen

What’s your views on the current state of R&B?

I think we’re in a really amazing place. There are singers that fill that craving for the golden era of the 1990s. There are others with really solid vibes that feel like the '60s. And then there are people like myself who are blending genres and time periods while having fun, not giving a s— about the rules. 

I think that’s a positive thing, but it’s abrasive to people who only see R&B as a linear thing. There’s a broad range in what it can be in its true definition, and I’m excited to see where we go in the future. There are so many artists playing instruments and singing their ass off without a lick of autotune. I’m definitely a fan of the genre, and the next generation is going to be nuts. 

Read more: R&B Isn't Dead: Listen To 51 Songs By Summer Walker, Josh Levi & More Artists Who Are Pushing The Genre Forward

Do you feel this album will fill any perceived holes in the genre?

I’ll be honest, I create selfishly. I’m just going into the studio to chase some chills. I don’t really care about the holes in the R&B genre. I just feel like that’s a big boulder to carry on your shoulders. I’m just trying to tell my story. I’m doing my best to put these records together, to get them mixed on time, and to shoot these music videos. 

When penning music for artists like SZA, Chris Brown, and other greats, was there a point where you were like, I got to do this for me?

Yes. It’s hard to be selfish, but the more reading I did and the more I learned about myself, it just felt like it was time to prioritize something that means so much to me. 

Writing these records and working with these big artists is such a blessing, but I want to hit stages and see the world through my music. I want to collect furniture from all the different countries. I feel like the best way to do that is through my music, so this is me putting my music and my dreams first. And I’m just really excited about it all. 

Did you ever have a moment of hesitancy, especially with you starting out as a child actor?

Yes, it wasn’t always easy. I think internally, I know who I am. I know who God made. I don’t need outside people to validate what I know to be true. Sometimes you have to be patient to allow people to grow with you. 

It’s like being a Coca-Cola or a Pepsi. They met me as an actor and they know I make music, but they saw me in a certain light and as a certain brand. It takes time to transfer over and introduce new flavors to the consumer. I’m being patient with my fans, and I’m being patient with myself. I’m working harder to make a product that’s going to be acceptable and will allow me to continue making music I want to make. 

You’re a multi-hyphenate. An artist, actor, producer, and songwriter. Do you ever get overwhelmed by it all? 

When it comes to scheduling, I get overwhelmed. But I’m doing more to prioritize my mental and physical health without taking anything away from myself or my art. That balance is something I will continue to perfect over time. It’s like a muscle, and I’m still figuring it out. I want to do everything, and I know I can. I just think certain industries I’m involved in are a three-month season, rather than all 12. 

How did it feel to win a GRAMMY for SZA’s "Snooze"?

It’s really surreal. I’ve never been one to put too much energy into awards, but that GRAMMY felt different. That was a special thing. I don’t have a college degree or anything, but this is the closest thing I can say to my pops that, "Hey, I’m validated here." He obviously sees the work I do with all these big artists, but him coming to my house and holding my GRAMMY was an interesting moment. Seeing someone who’s always believed in me hold something that validated his belief was such a beautiful moment.

Do you feel like you’ve found your voice, or is something you’re still exploring? 

I feel like an artist’s work is never done. There’s always something to explore. I sat in a studio session with Babyface. He’s still exploring new things and he’s a lot older than me. The fact he’s still writing new songs and experiencing the world through his music lets me know it never ends. And I’m cool with that because this is a really awesome job. I feel like my voice is present and my voice is formed. It’s just all about packaging it so people can help me better. 

Are there future collaborations or goals you have in mind down the road? 

I definitely want to continue to make music, and I want to be rich enough to give back as well. I have a lot of initiatives and nonprofits I want to put together when I hit that $100 million mark, and I think it’s all possible through music. That’s why I fight so hard for my artistic journey because the brand itself can really uplift my own community. 

When will your day-one fans see you go back to acting?  

I’ve been ignoring self audition tapes for three years because it’s been insane trying to produce big albus and build these albums out in preparation for tours. But I’m looking forward to the release of this album and my tour to get back into acting class. I’m really a fan of the artform, so I want to shake off the cobwebs and really get back into the acting gym. I want to give [my fans] a performance that’s an elevation from everything they have seen from me before.

Today, Thurston Moore unveiled his latest solo project, Flow Critical Lucidity, an album that encapsulates his signature guitar-driven charm and dives deep into his experimental roots. 

The September 20 release marks another fascinating chapter in the illustrious career of an artist who has woven the tapestry of his music with the threads of New York's vibrant no wave scene since his teenage years in the mid-'70s. 

Moore's journey has been one of constant evolution, intersecting with countless facets of New York's indie arts. From legendary gigs at CBGBs and the Mudd Club to watching William S. Burroughs stalk the neighborhood streets and being drafted into Glenn Branca’s guitar orchestra, his story is deeply embedded in the city's art mythos. Alongside then-partner Kim Gordon, Moore formed the legendary Sonic Youth eventually joined by Lee Ranaldo and Steve Shelley. Through decades, lineup shifts, 15 LPs and countless experimental releases, the band transcended the boundaries of punk and outsider art, drawing influences from figures as diverse as Joni Mitchell and John Cage.

Their 1988 release, Daydream Nation, is likely their best-known, an epic triumph beloved by adventurous fans worldwide that has placed on countless "greatest albums ever" lists and influenced musicians and artists of many different disciplines.

Even when his work had made its way to major labels and international acclaim, Moore has never shied away from the avant-garde — from hours of guitar feedback to audacious records where he and his bandmates hammer nails into piano keys. From "Teen Age Riot" to "Kool Thing", and "100%," he’s co-written some of the most iconic indie rock songs of a generation as part of Sonic Youth and has also released pieces that question the very definition of music. 

Both during and after the dissolution of Sonic Youth, and following his move from New York to London — where he runs the book publishing house Ecstatic Peace Library and the record label Daydream Library Series with his partner, Eva Prinz — Moore's voracious appetite for creating new, exciting art persists. Flow Critical Lucidity exemplifies this relentless pursuit, bridging past influences with futuristic sounds in a sublime stretch of spacey rock. 

Every conversation with Moore reveals an encyclopedic knowledge of experimental art and more inspiring anecdotes than one could dream of — and this one is no different. 

As Moore prepares for the release, GRAMMY.com caught up with him to reflect on his storied career and ever-changing landscape of experimental art, the history of no wave cinema, his evolving assessment of his own vocals, and his decision to say goodbye to New York. 

This interview has been edited for clarity and length. 

The art for your new album is based on a Jamie Nares piece, and I know you mention her in your memoir alongside no wave filmmakers like Vivienne Dick and Scott B and Beth B — a scene that you described as "a community that became only more alluring to me in their smart and erotic subversion." I mean, even just reading that is appealing.

Yeah. Downtown New York in the late '70s had the initial CBGB and Max's punk scene with Patti [Smith] and Blondie and Talking Heads, Ramones and Television, Richard Hell. There was a concurrent community of younger artists and musicians, and they got tagged with the genre of being no wave. And no wave wasn't something that came out of punk or new wave. It actually coexisted as even more challenging music. Punk really was a rock and roll music, whereas no wave was absolutely not a rock and roll music. It was just using the instrumentation of it, but the players were approaching the instruments without any semblance of traditional tropes. 

That fascinated a lot of people who were already in New York City, downtown, in the art scene coming out of minimalist and conceptual art practices. Some of these artists are filmmakers, and they're very attracted to these bands that are creating a new way of playing music in complete resistance to the standards of expectation with traditionalism. No wave becomes a real pride of definition for them in some of the visual art. Super 8 and 16 millimeter movie cameras were affordable cameras. The film was somewhat affordable from certain film labs downtown. And you could make either silent, or if you're really audacious, sound movies that weren’t expensive. It wasn't any more expensive than making a 7-inch. And so these no wave filmmakers had a space on St. Mark's Place, just a ratty little storefront where they would show these movies. Some were better than others, let's put it that way, but the idea was that they were doing it and it was being done fast and it was using just the local people on the scene as actors. And some of them became serious filmmakers. I mean, Jim Jarmusch came out of that scene. 

Jamie Nares was living in Manhattan and making these interesting films at the time, utilizing some of the no wave musicians as actors and actresses. Her films had a certain character about them because she had a really specific focus on what she wanted to present. It wasn't just having fun and slapdash. Some of the films were really affecting and really interesting. Also, if you look at the back of No New York, the compilation album that Brian Eno recorded of some of the bands on the downtown scene at that point, Jamie was the first guitar player in the Contortions. 

What was it about Nare's work specifically that really burrowed into you and led to this cover?

Well, the work actually on the cover of the record is maybe not that indicative of what people usually know about Jamie Nares today. A lot of her work is really in the realm of painting, fairly large canvases with huge swaths of energy, paint streaking across them. They're very dancey and poetic. 

I went to her retrospective [in Milwaukee], and noticed that some of her earlier sculptures were there, and one of them was that helmet with the tuning forks sticking out of it. I just thought it was so evocative and beautiful, this idea of taking a military implement and recontextualizing it as an article of communication and music. Jamie’s piece is called "Samurai Walkman," and I toyed with calling the album that. But I really liked calling the record Flow Critical Lucidity, taken from a lyric Eva [Prinz] had written. She wrote lyrics to five out of the seven songs on the record. The line reminded me of something that would come out of the pen of Mark E. Smith of the Fall. Even though that's the last thing I think Eva was considering. She writes under the pseudonym Radieux Radio, and always has, since The Best Day record in 2014. It's been really wonderful because it's this other voice that I get to work with. It's a voice that's decidedly not a white male voice. It's a feminist voice. And I really embrace that because I think that really gives the music that much more strength.

What do you appreciate most about Eva's purview as a writer and lyricist? 

There's a certain joy to the intellect of nature that she is able to put into words that I find really endearing and alluring and smart. I tend to be a little more thorny, maybe a little more…I don't know, no wave sassy. I'll add a little bit to what she does and vice versa. It's a really great collaboration. We collaborate mostly on publishing books. She was a senior book editor at Rizzoli, Abrams, and Taschen. So that to me is really enjoyable, publishing books and actually putting some records up by new bands. 

What else do you have on tap?

Well, this record of mine is on our label, Daydream Library [Series]. We put out a new record by Devon Ross, a young singer/songwriter from Los Angeles. She's an actress and a model, and she was in this limited TV series called "Irma Vep" that the filmmaker Olivier Assayas made for HBO with Alicia Vikander. I met her at screenings and she said she had music. People send me music all the time, and I'm usually like, "Yeah, sure." There's not that much I'm that interested in facilitating. I used to put a lot of records out through the '80s and '90s, but when we moved to London, I cooled down on it. And then we saw this band called Big Joanie, which was these three Black English girls who have a really amazing political punk band. We put out their first two records, and now Devon Ross is the latest that we put out.

Eva listened to it first and said, "It's really good." I listened to it and I agreed. We put an EP out, and it's become really buzzy. She has this great band, and it's really just noisy, sonic punk pop music. There's a couple of bands in Miami that we put records out by. There's a shoegaze Caribbean kind of band called the Sea Foam Walls I really like. And there's an all-girl band there called Las Nubes, which means the clouds en español. They sing in Spanish and English, and they're very much part of the Miami punk scene that is primarily bilingual. We put out a record by the drummer of the Ex, the anarcho-punk band from Holland… we put out a CD of her sound healing music. 

We put out whatever we want. We're just an indie label out of our London flat, and we make books whenever we get enough coin to do something. We've done a few memoirs, one by David Toop, an experimental musician here in London. We're doing another one with Maggie Nicols, who since the late '60s has been in the forefront of free improvisation music here in England. We keep ourselves busy, but we try not to stretch ourselves too thin at the same time.

Right now, I just want to stay in one place and continue writing because I really enjoyed writing the memoir. And now I'm heads down, putting the finishing touches on a novel that I hope to get published, if somebody bites. It takes place in the early '80s in downtown New York City, just characters.

I bet that in its own way there’s some memoir to that, too.

A little bit, yeah, a little bit. I certainly realized that I had to place it in an environment that I could be intimate with. 

When you’re back in New York City and walking around, is it recognizable at all to you from 50 years ago?

Especially the deeper in the Lower East Side you go, there are certain walls or corners where you can flash back on the '70s, early '80s. The city was far dirtier then, a little more lawless. And in that respect, you never really felt that safe. But when you're young, it's like you're somewhat invincible anyway. So I don't really miss it at the age I am now. I'd rather be living underneath an olive tree somewhere in northern Italy than having to live on East Broadway or something. But it's also a matter of financial stability. If somebody offered me some fabulous place in Manhattan, or anywhere in New York City, free of charge, I might swoop on it.

But I like living in London. We really love it. There's no guns here really. That's a real plus. I'm just really waiting to see what the elections are going to be in November as far as how safe I feel the USA is because I have such anxiety about that. We're flying in the day before the election just to vote. 

I know you’ve shared that you’re dealing with a heart condition, too. Has that cleared to the point that you can travel?

Another reason why I'll be coming in at the end of the year is because I still have to go under the knife a bit. But it's nothing critical. It's just an ablation thing. People have AFib [atrial fibrillation] and irregular heartbeats and stuff, and sometimes you have to go in there and put a stent in. It's an operation that's done all day every day. Its success rate is 99%. I have more of a chance of falling out the window tonight. It still means that I can't do too much else. So I'm not going to really be doing much touring. But like I said, I prefer actually writing. I want to get into writer mode more so than getting into a van and crisscrossing the planet and playing in beer halls. I've done that a lot. 

I'll play some specific shows as long as they are interesting. I like playing in special places like in churches, and certain festivals are cool. 

Can you talk about building the sound on Flow Critical Lucidity? There are parts of it that conjure The Stooges’ "We Will Fall," or something like that.

Yeah, it does have that vibe. I demoed a lot of it on a small digital recorder that I figured out how to use because I'm pretty much a Luddite with this stuff. I allowed the musicians to create parts to what I was doing. I was using digital drum patterns just so I could have a drum pattern, and sometimes I would pick these really weirdo drum patterns. So something like the song "We Get High" has that "We Will Fall" drum rhythm. And my drummer, Jem Daulton, listened to that and he recreated it himself, or at least what that vibe was. We used a studio called Total Refreshment Centre in North London that the Chicago label International Anthem uses as their English studio. It has that kind of new cosmic dub vibe. 

Then there’s Jon Leidecker, who's an electronics musician who's in the band, he's actually processing some of the inputs and outputting them in a specific way and adding some electronic flourishes. He records under the name Wobbly and is a member of Negativland. That, and also the engineer, Margo Broom, was really instrumental in how that record sounded. She had recorded, mixed, and mastered Big Joanie, and I really liked how those records were sounding. She's a genius, and she really made this record sound the way it sounds. Watching her work, she was just so smart and so expedient, and she really knew my history as a musician. Even working with the vocals, I always hate my vocals because I feel like I'm being very challenged by how to stay in key to all this finicky music. I was really impressed how she was treating the vocals and making it work. And she said, "Well, I've been listening to your vocals since I was 10 years old."

How did you treat singing back in the '80s? Were you just not self-conscious about it? Because you sound comfortable on this.

It was through fits and starts that I had some realization of how to present myself as a vocalist. I never felt like I reached a point where I feel like I am comfortable with it, and I regret not actually focusing on that more seriously as I did with everything else. When it came to getting on the mic, I just thought, well, it's either going to work or it's not. And then I realized, no, there's a lot of discipline. There's a lot of practice that you can put into this. When I see Nick Cave sit down at a piano and start singing, it’s clear this is somebody who's really focused on how to be a singer. I regret that I didn't focus more on that because I think there's such a power there. 

Read more: Nick Cave Returns With The Bad Seeds To Plant Joyful Noise

When you would see punk bands in the late '80s, early '90s, it was like, "Okay, the singers can be good, or they can be not so good, but the collective is what it's all about." But at the same time, a band like Nirvana comes out, and they’re a great band, but they’re not altogether that different from a lot of other bands that they associated with. What's really raising the level is that singer's voice and how that singer is getting on the microphone. Kurt's voice was just something else entirely. Nobody was singing like that. When I first heard him, I was like, "Oh, he's doing a Lemmy from Motörhead thing but in the context of a Pacific Northwest punk thing. That's brilliant." But it was so much more than that because it was soul shredding and it was beautiful. 

So I always thought, in my case, I can be a serviceable singer more than a remarkable singer. There's only a few people who can be remarkable singers. It's like wanting to speak another language. I wish I could speak another language. I wish I could sing with the same astounding resonance as Billie Holiday or Joni Mitchell. But I ignored that. 

I'm very conscious of that when I make a record now. Like, "I'm going to do my best here." But when I listen to live tapes, I'm just like, "Man, nobody's going to get fooled into thinking that I'm Jim Morrison." I used to complain about Steve Albini's vocal mixes. It was all about really slamming drums and guitars and stuff like that. And I love Steve, but I was like, "The vocals kind of suffer because everything else is just blasting." And his response was, "Well, listen, most of these singers I record, very few of them are Paul McCartneys." And he's right about that. But also it's like, "Well, maybe you should try to make them Paul McCartneys. Let's figure this out. Take some singing lessons." 

Read more: Without Steve Albini, These 5 Albums Would Be Unrecognizable: Pixies, Nirvana, PJ Harvey & More

Back in 1985 or '86, we were doing some gig and this musician came up to me and she goes, "There’s nothing wrong with taking singing lessons. You should try singing and not screaming or shouting." I was really just in shock. I was like, "Wow. I never even thought about that." Early on, I was just yelling into the microphone. Of course, there was a lot of din going on on stage. You had to yell to get heard because the sound systems couldn't deal with the blasting guitar noise. But it made me think, "You're right, that would make it better."

I assumed this would be a long answer so I saved it for the end, but what are you listening to and reading lately that’s turning you on?

I take cues from other young poets that I see in social media sharing what they're reading and then sending away for those books. I love that whole culture of literature. There's a lot of mainstream literature I think is great. I think Colson Whitehead continues to be one of the great writers that we have in the USA, if not the world. Even this trio of genre novels that he's been working on, that second one, Harlem Shuffle, was really, really fun to read and really extremely artful and for me, a great course in how to write fiction, just by reading a book like that.

And listening, I know I just constantly take cues again from different people I entrust with their tastes of buying records on Bandcamp. I generally tend towards buying more experimental music, the whole continuing underground aesthetics that you might hear coming out of the Wolf Eyes world. I still think that's where some great music is happening. I don't really listen to too much straight ahead, compositional rock and roll music. I feel like I've so decoded a lot of that kind of songwriting that I don't find myself listening to it for any sense of wonder. 

Sometimes I'll spend an hour or two just putting things on, playing them at a commanding volume, and I'll just sit there and look at the record cover. Sometimes it leads me into being really intrigued by other people on the record, and I'll go into Discogs and find out all the other work they've done. That's what I really adore about the internet. You can actually do this research while you're processing the work. The internet was always an ideal coming out of the hippie mindset anyway, wasn't it? It's just been corporatized and monetized beyond any recognition of such a thing. But it does exist.

At nightclubs in Tokyo, New York and beyond, pulsing through the speakers at major European music festivals, and even in Hollywood blockbusters, one sound has been steadily taking over: amapiano. 

The South African genre, with a blend of deep house, jazz, lounge and local musical styles, has captivated the world, generating billions of views on social media and sparking a cultural phenomenon that shows no signs of slowing down. On TikTok alone, the #Amapiano hashtag has amassed over 10 billion views, a testament to its global reach and popularity.

Characterized by velvety, hypnotic grooves, piano melodies, deep basslines, and smooth percussive rhythms, amapiano was born in the townships of Gauteng Province — particularly in cities like Pretoria and Johannesburg — in the mid-2010s. Slower than the average club track, amapiano songs often live between 110 and 120 bpm. The genre's rise to global dominance is a testament to the power of grassroots creativity and digital connectivity. 

Fast-forward to February 2024, and South African singer Tyla took home the inaugural golden gramophone for Best African Music Performance at the 2024 GRAMMYs. Beyond Music's Biggest Night, Tyla's amapiano-infused Afropop hit "Water" topped the Billboard U.S. Afrobeats Songs and Hip-Hop/R&B charts, and became the first African song to enter the Billboard Hot 100 since 1968. The "Water" dance challenge on TikTok — created by Tyla’s choreographer, Litchi — also widely pushed the song.

Tyla isn't alone in pushing the genre's popularity. Interest in amapiano has been propelled by social media and streaming platforms. According to Spotify data, the genre garnered its first 100 million streams in 2020; by mid-2024 the platform reported 855 million streams of amapiano songs. Between 2014 and 2024, there has been a 153 percent growth in international exposure to the genre. 

While Tyla’s win at the GRAMMYs and in wider culture affirms the genre’s solid footing in the global music scene, amapiano’s popularity is the result of a decade-long journey. 

The Birth Of A Movement

While the birth of amapiano is generally pegged to 2014, there’s no specific event or single person that can be credited with its uprising. Amapiano's origins were humble but innovative, distinguished by its inclusivity and collaboration — factors that are likely the result of the fluidity with which the genre emerged. 

Young, aspiring producers in South African townships used affordable personal computers and free music production software to blend globally-influenced sounds such as deep house and jazz with kwaito — a distinctly South African genre. True to the collaborative nature of the genre's origins, an amapiano song can have six to 10 collaborators (sometimes more); the result is a blend of carefully curated voices, notes, and themes that captivates listeners far beyond its birthplace.

Kabza De Small began his career in 2009 and broke through on the continent with his 2016 album Avenue Sounds. Today, he's hailed as the "King of Amapiano" by media, fans and industry peers. "Amapiano is considered a raw, rough sound. To see people globally dancing and participating in TikTok challenges is thrilling," he tells GRAMMY.com, reflecting on amapiano's unique sound and present-day virality.

This rawness is largely reflected in the genre’s production, which often strips down tracks to their bare essentials. Repetitive beats and bass often contribute to amapiano's "rough" aspect, making it feel more direct and visceral. Soulful melodies float over that heavy bass and percussion, and catchy vocal hooks balance the raw beats underneath.

Amapiano’s collaborative nature has been crucial to its development. Kabza De Small shouts out pioneering producer, singer and songwriter, Mdu aka TRP. "Not a lot of people know that he basically founded the log drum sound that is so essential and distinct" to amapiano, De Small says. In amapiano, the "log drum" isn't an actual instrument but a distinct, synthesized bass sound that captures the deep, resonant tones of a traditional log drum. This signature sound has become a cornerstone of amapiano's unique and captivating vibe.

Cultural authenticity has been a key factor in the sound's appeal. It's not just a genre of music, but a representation of South African identity and expression. The name itself came from the Zulu language, which is the word for "pianos."

By 2016, amapiano was still finding its ground, with local DJs and producers refining its signature elements. 

Learn more: 11 Women Pushing Amapiano To Global Heights: Uncle Waffles, Nkosazana Daughter, & More

A significant milestone was achieved in 2017 when De Mogul SA's "Oe Batla Kae" became one of the first amapiano tracks to achieve commercial success. The tune got the artist booked for local shows, effectively paving the way for other amapiano songs. In 2018, "Umshove" by Kabza De Small feat. Leehleza showcased a more refined amapiano sound, highlighting elements that "Oe Batla Kae" lacked — particularly the log drum.

2019 was a defining year for amapiano, as songs like "Labantwana Ama Uber" by Semi Tee (feat. Kammu Dee and Miano), "Vula Vala" by DJ Maphorisa and Kabza De Small (feat. Nokwazi and Vigro Deep), and "Kokota Piano" by Kaygee Daking and Bizizi further left the underground. Amapiano could be heard on television and radio, in clubs, and across social media, effectively making the above songs anthems throughout South Africa. 

As the sound began to spread nationally, it carried with it the stories, language, and rhythms of its birthplace, creating a strong connection with listeners across the country.

As the world grappled with COVID-related lockdowns in 2020 and 2021, danceable amapiano songs such as DBN Gogo and Musa Keys' "Possible," Focalistic's "Ke Star" feat. Vigro Deep, and "Emcimbini" by Kabza De Small and others provided a much-needed escape. With more time spent online during the pandemic, the genre was simultaneously making its way into social media globally, with a variety of TikTok dance challenges bringing additional listeners to the genre.

International collaborations further catapulted amapiano onto the world stage. In 2022, Nigerian crooner CKay collaborated with Davido and Focalistic on  "Watawi", a notably huge Afropiano song. On YouTube, the songs performed quite well, with "Woza" by South African artists Mr JazziQ, Kabza De Small and Lady Du featuring Boohle hitting 21 million views. "Mang’Dakiwe" by DJ Obza featuring Leon Lee hit 17 million views. The remix, done in collaboration with Tanzanian bongo artist Harmonize garnered 29 million views.

By 2023, the amapiano sound was now mature and definitive, with all of its key elements together. Over the next few years, amapiano sounds would be incorporated with genres from other countries to great effect.

Zimbabwean amapiano vocalist Sha Sha's "Tender Love" feat. DJ Maphorisa and Kabza De Small garnered more than 15 million views on YouTube. The popular release showcased her impeccable vocal range and denoted that amapiano was now being done by artists beyond South Africa. For her efforts, Sha Sha took home the Viewer’s Choice Best New International Act award at the 2020 BET Awards. Her win on an international platform signaled amapiano's arrival on the global music scene and opened doors for more artists to gain international exposure.

Simultaneously, awards for and documentation of amapiano within South Africa pushed the movement even further. In 2021, the South Africa Amapiano Music Awards were launched and exclusively dedicated to the genre. The inaugural Best Amapiano Album Of The Year Award was given to De Mthuda for Ace of Spades.

Uncle Waffles, whose electrifying DJ sets have made her a symbol of the genre's youthful exuberance, marvels at this global embrace. "It's amazing to see the world embrace a new sound," she tells GRAMMY.com. "Seeing people dancing and singing to the songs never fails to stun me." 

Amapiano artists including Uncle Waffles, DBN Gogo, and Major League Djz have performed on a variety of global stages, from AfroNation's Portugal and Miami events to Coachella and London's O2 Arena. Tyla has performed at the BET Awards, the 2024 Olympics and the Cannes Lions Festival 2024.

Amapiano has become a cultural ambassador, allowing artists in the diaspora to connect with their roots while introducing the sound to new audiences. 

Amapiano singer Nqobilé Danseur, who grew up in South Africa before moving to the UK at age 12, tells GRAMMY.com that "amapiano is deeply personal to me as it embodies my South African heritage and journey. Growing up in South Africa, kwaito was the soundtrack to our lives."

The genre's authentic DNA has allowed artists to explore new territories, both geographically and creatively. Nqobilé recounted her 2022 single "Shake" featuring Xavier being played during a carnival party in New York, and how the crowd's engagement reflected amapiano's ability to transcend cultural and physical boundaries.

Singer/songwriter Boohle, who transitioned from gospel and Afropop to amapiano, has toured Dubai, Amsterdam, and many African countries. "Seeing cultures and backgrounds unite over the music we make is something else. I would call it God's plan," she tells GRAMMY.com.

This international appeal has seen the rise of crossover subgenres such as Afropiano (Nigeria), bongopiano (Tanzania), Gqom 2.0 (South Africa), and bique (Mozambique). Afropiano tracks have garnered hundreds of millions of views on YouTube as of 2024. Among the largest hits are Kizz Daniel and Tekno's "Buga," Spyro's "Who is Your Guy" remix feat. Tiwa Savage, and "Unavailable" by Davido feat. Musa Keys.

Diamond Platnumz, a Tanzanian bongo artist, is a prolific contributor to the amapiano genre. "Tanzania has a very close relationship with South Africa from years back established with our forefathers," he says, adding that he also has family in South Africa. "I spend a lot of time there between business and family obligations. It was a natural thing for me as a creative to infuse what I was hearing on the ground in SA with what we are accustomed to in Tanzania."

Platnumz's amapiano catalog is impressive, with songs such as "Iyo", "Shu!", and "Nitongoze." He has collaborated with the genre’s heavyweights including rapper Focalistic, choir Mapara A Jazz, and the late Costa Tich. His 2024 amapiano single "Komasava" remix is an international collaboration that featured Khalil Harrison, Chley, and Jason Derulo. 

The track, rich in amapiano beats, layered with modern pop elements, and Zulu, Xhosa, French and Swahili lyrics, exemplifies how the genre has become a bridge between artists from different parts of the world.

As amapiano spread globally, it began to influence fashion, dance, and broader culture. 

The genre's success has also opened doors for African artists to venture into arenas outside of performing music. Kabza De Small created PianoHub, a record label which houses South African amapiano artists including Young Stunna, Mdu aka TRP, Nkulee & Skroef28, Deeper Phil, Masterpiece TVK, and Stakev. De Small added that he plans to open a venue called Piano Hub Soweto — another example of how amapiano has created economic opportunities and fostered community development.

DBN Gogo echoes this sentiment, adding that amapiano has broadened the horizons for many in the industry. "Outside of music, I think my team and I have been grateful for the opportunity to travel and see the world," she says. "Whenever we do have the opportunity we take time in different countries to immerse ourselves in the dance culture there. Amapiano has done so much in giving us and many others the chance to represent South Africa and the genre worldwide."

The success of amapiano has boosted Nqobilé Danseur's confidence, affirming her authenticity and driving her to release music consistently. Diamond Platnumz adds that he has become more aware through his involvement with amapiano, making his life's purpose even more meaningful. This July, DBN Gogo became the first amapiano DJ to perform at Belgium's Tomorrowland festival.

Even Beyoncé has taken notice: Uncle Waffles' debut single "Tanzania"  was featured during a dance break on the European leg of the Renaissance World Tour.

As amapiano enters its second decade, its influence shows no signs of waning. The genre continues to evolve, with artists experimenting with new sounds and collaborations that push its boundaries. 

Going forward, listeners can expect to see amapiano artists continuing to team up with global stars, experimenting with sounds that cross genre boundaries, from Afrobeats to electronic dance. 

In October 2023, DBN Gogo collaborated with veteran Italian EDM DJ and producer Benny Benassi on a track titled "SAdesFakSHen." In June 2024, Chris Brown released "Hmmm," an Afropiano song featuring Davido. The song, which is part of his 11:11 album now has over 14 million views on YouTube by the time of this publication. Previously, Chris Brown appeared on the "Monalisa" remix, an Afropiano hit by Nigerian singer Lojay and producer Sarz.

"Tshwala Bam" by TitoM and Yuppe is another 2024 amapiano hit that saw Burna Boy jump on a remix. The song spawned a massive TikTok challenge, which got Tyla dancing with famed streamer Kai Cenat, while Khabi Lame joined in on the challenge, and Jason Derulo collaborated with popular twins Laurent and Larry Bourgeois on the dance. 

Despite its success, amapiano faces challenges as it continues to grow. Maintaining its cultural authenticity while appealing to a global audience is a delicate balance. There's also the question of how to ensure that the pioneers and grassroots creators of the genre continue to benefit from its global success.

Boohle envisions a bright future for the genre. "Seeing the world jamming to amapiano is a dream come true for me as a young musician in South Africa," she says. "Remember, we come from a background of apartheid and oppression. Seeing cultures and backgrounds unite over the music we make is something else."

The story of amapiano is still being written, with each new release, collaboration, and dance challenge adding a new chapter to this remarkable musical journey. As it continues to evolve and inspire, one thing is certain: The amapiano revolution is far from over – it's just getting started.

"I think collaboration boils down to the core belief that something can work," Jack Antonoff recently told GRAMMY.com. "When I make an album with someone, I'm filled with faith that much more in my life or the universe can work, which is definitely a reason why I do this."

The 11-time GRAMMY-winning singer, songwriter and producer has worked with many of the biggest modern pop stars — from Taylor Swift, Lana Del Rey and Lorde, to St. Vincent and Sabrina Carpenter — but his core focus has never changed. Antonoff simply wants to make music he loves with people he loves, and perform it live.

Antonoff not only holds many peoples' dream job of being Swift's go-to collaborator, but he's been having a banner year filled with notable creative projects and big wins. At the 2024 GRAMMYs, he won Producer of the Year, Non-Classical for the third year in a row. He also earned two more GRAMMYs that night, sharing Best Pop Vocal Album and Album Of The Year with Swift for his extensive production work, co-writing and instrumentation on Midnights. In March, he released his fourth album as Bleachers and launched a lengthy world tour with the band, which will wrap with their biggest-ever (sold-out) gig at Madison Square Garden on Oct. 4.

His 2024 production credits include Swift's The Tortured Poets Department, four of breakout star Carpenter's Short n' Sweet tracks including No. 1 hit "Please Please Please," and even one of Kendrick Lamar's Drake diss tracks, "6:16 in LA." He also curated and produced the soundtrack for Apple TV's WWII couture period drama "The New Look," featuring modern renditions of classics by Lana Del Rey, Florence Welch, Nick Cave and others. He was also tapped by Tony-winning director Sam Gold to create the soundtrack for a modern reimagining of "Romeo and Juliet," debuting on Broadway later this month.

Before Antonoff became one of the most in-demand producers in pop, he spent his time in bands. As a high school senior in 2002, he formed indie rock outfit Steel Train with several classmates, who'd have a decade-long run playing big festivals including Bonnaroo, SXSW, Warped Tour and Lollapalooza. Afterwards, he played guitar in the power pop trio fun. with whom he earned his first six GRAMMY nods and won his first two in 2013, for Best New Artist and Song of the Year for their anthemic hit "We Are Young" featuring Janelle Monáe.

2013 was a pivotal year for the "Tiny Moves" artist, as it also marked his first time he worked with Swift, who then enlisted him to support her transition away from country music on Album Of The Year winner 1989. Antonoff has said that she was the first artist to trust him as a producer, and that their work together, understandably, opened many other doors for him.

GRAMMY.com recently caught up with the prolific producer and artist for a dive deep into his collaborative magic, the latest Bleachers album, and why he thinks pop is whatever you want it to be. 

This interview has been edited and condensed.

There's a lot to talk about just from this year, it's pretty crazy. 

When the Bleachers album came out and I was starting to do interviews, I had this really weird experience. Interviews recap things that have happened, so [they make me] realize how little I think about the past. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. 

I think it's a symptom of how much my life is future-focused — which is something I really like and fear about my life at the same time. The studio is such a forward place. You're thinking about the next thing, how to find this next feeling in literal and esoteric ways. [Being on] the road is one of the most literally forward places — every day you're somewhere new and you're thinking about the next day and the tour. 

I feel like I'm trapped in the future. It's nice and I've designed it that way. But sometimes I get a little scattered or emotional when I talk about things that have happened because I'm thinking about them for the first time. I don't have canned answers. 

You're often called a super-producer, which is valid; you've worked with so many big artists and on so much music that everyone hears. But what are you desiring as an artist and a producer lately?

The grand desire that I have has never changed, because it's so much bigger than any amount of success. That desire is to write and produce things and play live. That's a big part of why I love this work so much is because nothing can really help you with that besides your soul. You could be in the most expensive studio in the world with all the best engineers, but there's no proof that [that setting] equals a better song than just sitting in your room.

That fleeting feeling of knowing that it comes and it goes, and you just have to be there to grab it, is such a deep connected-to-the-cosmos feeling.

When you're working on music, at what point do you get excited about a song or know that it's going in the right direction?

When it does happen is when I start to push it forward in a real way. There's an amazing amount of f—king around in search of that feeling, and you never know where you're going to get it. It's sometimes just moving around instruments or lyrics or thoughts with no direction until one thing feels exciting, and then you follow that thing. 

It's a really fun process, and it can be anxiety-producing. It's a different kind of fun when you do it with someone else, because you're on this weird adventure together. When you're in a room with other people and everyone has that feeling off of one idea or one sound, it's a very connecting feeling. 

When you're working on your own music, particularly with Bleachers, it's mostly just you in the studio, right? 

Yes. But the Bleachers process is oddly similar [to my producing], just sort of flipped. I work with producers on Bleachers because I need it sometimes. I've always had these two sides of writing my music and having my own band and needing help with that in various ways. I've learned so much on either side. 

Being on the road with Bleachers, remarkably, keeps me connected to everything that matters the most when I'm making records with other artists because I can very easily visualize real fans, the people who live and die by this music. To be acquainted with them every night is a very powerful experience. It always just reminds me who I'm in conversation with, because I think it's easier than ever to get lost.

You've had a busy summer on the road with the Bleachers. How has it felt performing this album live?

It's really my favorite ever. It's the first album I've made with Bleachers that feels like a response to this thing that happens at the shows. Somewhere during the Take the Sadness Out of Saturday Night [tour in 2021], the shows got really crazy and loose and kind of off the wall. There was something about it where I was kinda like, Okay, you want to play chicken? [Laughs.] I went into the studio and I tried to one up them. I never felt that before. This time I was talking right at [my fans], which is a luxury of being known by them.**

The first song we ever released was "I Wanna Get Better," which is almost a Wikipedia page of my life, it rattles through everything I'm going to be talking about [forever]. It feels like now I can wax on about something, and they know what I'm talking about.

Is that why you decided to self-title this album?

The actual decision to self-title is a gut feeling. But the real reason is it felt like an earned moment, like we had arrived somewhere where everything had completely formed.

Every reference point [while] making this album became about our own history and our own mythology. In the past, I would have said, Make it like a Mick Fleetwood or Ringo kind of feel. Now the reference point would be Play it like you do at this point in the set when the wheels have blown out for you. You tour and spend enough time with people where it becomes almost like conversations with your best friends, the reference points become your own shared history. 

What called you back into the studio to make your own music? 

I never know. My life is a lot less structured than people would think. The way I make Bleachers records — and even in everything I make with other people — there's a real looseness to it because I like to be [in the studio] when I feel incredibly excited to be there. I schedule things, just not terribly far out.

For example, Lana and I or Taylor and I have never once been like, "Let's book out a month here." It's sort of like, "What are you doing today? I got this idea, come over." And then if that's feeling good, it's like, "What are you doing tomorrow? Let's keep this going." It's very [much] catching it when it's happening. Some days I'm in the studio for an hour, some days for 16 hours; it's all based on how I feel. 

Are you always working on music or ideas — is there always something that's coming out of you? 

Lately — the past couple years — I've been feeling the need to create a lot. I feel connected to something, and I feel a lot of joy and that good buzzy anxiety of having these ideas and wanting to hear them, which reminds me of my earliest memories of writing and producing music. When you hear the thing in reality — you can press play on a thing that was a thought — it's the most incredible experience.

"Alma Mater" is such a poetic way to refer to an ex. How did that track come together? Did you have Lana del Rey in mind for it? 

No, we were just f—ing around. I think a lot about where you put people [when listening to a song]. On that song, I wanted to put you in a room with me and her, so I left a lot of the elements of us being in the room writing it, messing around. We kept singing back and forth like, "She's my alma mater, f— Balenciaga." [Chuckles.] The lyrics were just making us smile. 

As it started to come together, this idea of referring to an old relationship as an alma mater, that excited me and made me want to write that story. That's kind of what an old relationship is: a school that you go to where there's a whole set of friends, and a whole culture, and when it's over, poof, it's gone. 

Obviously, you worked with Sabrina Carpenter on some of her new music… 

How brilliant is she?

Read more: How Sabrina Carpenter Became A Pop Queen: Tracing Her Journey To 'Short N' Sweet'

She's around the same age Taylor Swift was when you started working with her. Do you see any parallels with Sabrina where Taylor was at then? Sabrina has said it was a really big deal to get to work with you. What was it like working with her? 

It was a big deal for me to get to work with her. The great parallel is brilliant writing and being able to write about one's life in the most vulnerable and powerful way. It sounds so simple, but it's the rarest thing to be able to write about your life and to be able to make it so specific and also so poetic. You know it as soon as you hear it.

Can you talk a little bit about the sonic landscape on "Please Please Please"?

We were thinking a lot about joy and the kind of fantastical nature of ABBA, Dolly [Parton] and ELO that I felt would fit her voice and lyrics so well. She [does] this quick vacillation between really cheeky then really emotional, back to really sarcastic, and then she smacks you over the head with something so serious and real that you're stunned. It's my favorite kind of music.

One of the reasons it's so thrilling to me that so many people have responded to it is because it doesn't sound like anything that's going on at all, it almost sounds like the opposite of everything going on. Those are my favorite moments; when something out of left field grabs everyone's attention.

Those bubbly sounds right when "Please Please Please" comes in are not in time. You have a LinnDrum ['80s drum machine] and a live drum playing this tight beat and these country-picking acoustic guitars. Then you have these wobbling synths that, in my head, I'm playing the same way someone would play it when it was first invented because you're just playing along to the track, you're not locking it to any MIDI or anything. I was thinking a lot about that time period — I think about [it] all the time — when I was with Sabrina.

How has your creative partnership with Taylor Swift and your trust in each other evolved in the decade-plus you've been working together? And what has been the coolest thing for you to see in your ongoing work?

As far as evolution, we just have our own language. I saw her play last night [at Wembley Stadium in London], and actually played some songs there too. Most of the time when we work it's just her and I in a room, usually my apartment or Electric Lady [Studios]. To see [the songs] in literally the biggest spaces and retain all of [their] importance and soul and feeling like it's that for every single person in that crowd, it's like the absolute coolest.

She's the absolute greatest of all time, with a never-ending hunger to push forward. 

You and Taylor both have such an affinity for witty, nerdy, literary references, and poetic phrasing. How do you pull that out in a way that makes sense in a pop song structure? 

I think that tendency is just inherent in both of us. But I think the concept of pop structure is whatever the hell we want it to be. The worst of pop music is ambulance-chasing. The real inspiration is to be your own loud light-up machine shooting down the street. The things I've loved about pop music have just invigorated me to believe that pop music is whatever the hell the person making it says it is, and then everyone else gets to argue if it is or isn't. 

I don't sit around and think about genre, placement, or who they're going to satisfy. All those thoughts are not just the death of making things. It's pretty easy for me to only consider that gut feeling. I'm just fascinated by how people hear things. There's no genre of music that I think is better or worse than any other one. 

What can you tell us about the upcoming Romeo + Juliet Broadway show you soundtracked? Was it a different creative exercise for you to score such a well-known text; how so?

It was a very different process which is exactly why I wanted to do it. Credit to [director] Sam Gold who really let me fly out to left field and back. I'm about 50 percent through it and I'm going to finish it when I'm home from this tour. It's been something that has opened my world in many ways, to a whole new side of scoring and writing for a musical. 

You have a lot of GRAMMYs, 11 of them — 

People always ask me if it gets normal. No, it doesn't get normal! It's crazy. 

One, where do you keep them? 

That's one thing I've never really figured out, they kind of move around. Everything in my life moves around a lot, so I don't have a satisfying answer for that one.

And going back to 2013 when you won your first GRAMMYs with fun., how did you feel that day? 

F—ing shocked. As I was saying, I don't really sit around thinking about the past because it's the opposite of the job. What's so shocking about those moments is you're surrounded by family and the people you love and work with, and it's this huge moment to think about how you got to that point. 

My biggest takeaway of these experiences that force you to stop and think about the road behind is just how heavy they are. All of us are held up by really special people, whether it's partners or parents or siblings, fans, engineers, managers, loved ones. If you have amazing people around you, it's the best feeling in the world. That's my favorite part about any award, it feels like it's for everyone that got you there.